Navigate / search

Elise Sutton and Stealth Submission

Two of my favorite subjects, which are actually related: Elise Sutton and Stealth Submission. For those of you who don’t know who Elise Sutton is, here is the website: http://elisesutton.homestead.com/.

When I first started learning about D/s, Elise Sutton was one of the few websites out there. Oh there were a few others out there, but they were just pure porn. From the start, I tried to figure out how D/s would work for me, and the answer to that is it that it works in a relationship with someone where I feel intimacy. So on the fact of things, Elise Sutton’s site seems to propose that. At the time I read through the whole site. I have to admit that I struggled so much with what was on there that I walked away from the concept of D/s completely. But as many of you guys know, you can’t completely walk away. And so I came back. I read through it again and decided that it was just another version of porn.

Here are some of the problems I have with it.

First of all, she says that all women are superior to men. That is just plain bull-shit. Seriously. You all know women who are useless. Women who couldn’t lead their way out of a paper bag. Women who are emotional and physical messes. Women are not superior to men. (Ok I may be superior to some of you but that is another story :) ) Sub men are wonderful supportive guys. They are not any less important because they are sub. They are not inferior. They simply like something different.

Second, she says that because all women are superior to men, they clearly are all dominant and just do not know it. All the man has to do is to ‘seduce her dominant nature’. She goes on to suggest that you start with stealth submission (more on that later) and then move on to buy her leather. I bet that there are quite of few of you on here who have tried stealth submission with no luck. If that is all it takes to make a woman dominant, there would be a whole lot of them out there.

There are a whole lot of other things I dislike, but the last one is a big one. Elise Sutton is really not a woman. Sorry to disappoint you guys. ‘Elise Sutton’ is really a bunch of people writing under the assumed name, most of them men. The whole purpose of this website is to sell you books. That is all. There is no truth to the site. It is written to appeal to desperate men who want their wives to be dominant, or men who get off on reading the D/s porn. Nothing wrong with porn as long as you know that is what it is. A very smart former partner of mine said that it doesn’t matter that ES is not a woman. But you see, it does matter. Because what is proposed on her website is not reality. It is a man’s version of what he thinks will sell to other men. It is NOT what a woman thinks or feels. Almost all women find the site ridiculous.

Many years ago, all of this led me to the thought that women should have more resources out there, and men should have realistic resources out there. And that these things needed to be based around relationships, actual or wanted. Thus I started the site She Makes The Rules (now owned by someone else) and this site, Men Submit.

But on to stealth submission. So many sites recommend this as a way for men to get their wives to participate or become dominant. The concept is that by becoming submissive and serving her without her asking, you will show her the value in your submission, and the value for her becoming dominant. In my years of talking to men I’ve only had one man tell me that this has worked. Here is why it doesn’t work.

First, not all women are dominant. You may feel very submissive, but that doesn’t mean that your wife is dominant. You can’t make a fish into a zebra. It is just impossible. Just because she might be in charge at work, or be good at keeping the household going, it does not mean that she wants to be kinky and dominant.

Next, stealth submission is all about not communicating with your partner. God forbid you actually sit down and communicate with your spouse about what you are feeling. Instead, you start doing chores for her. The idea is that she is going to recognise all of your hard work, thank you profusely, and start spanking you. All because you do chores for her. The only problem with this is that you should have been doing the chores in the first place. And if I were in a relationship with you and you all of a sudden started doing all of the chores, I would worry. I would think you were having an affair or something else was wrong. And I would get very angry that you were not talking to me. And the more angry I got the less likely I would be willing to do anything that you wanted.

But the last problem with stealth submission is that you start out doing all of these things for her, and because you don’t tell her what it is about, she doesn’t get it. Then you get tired of doing all these things because she is not being dominant for you. And so you stop doing them. Now she is angry because you are no longer doing chores. So now you are both unhappy.

The key to being successful with this is communication.  I know it can be difficult.  I know that it can sometimes be terrifying.  But it is so much more honest than stealth.

AlphaDomme

AlphaDomme

I own Men Submit and am passionately committed to sharing information and experiences on how to live a female led relationship: from kink, to romance, to the daily practicalities of just gettin' it done. I live in San Diego with my subby hubby, BetaBoy, who is Australian. We are poly in our own fashion. This does not mean that we have a revolving door of partners. We prefer to have ongoing relationships with people vs. a one-off play date. At the moment our lives are very busy, but we always enjoy talking to people and meeting people. I'm an author, podcaster, and blogger. The topics I write and podcast about revolve around female led relationships and how to implement kink in a relationship with a dominant woman and submissive man. This is not just a commercial venture for us. We believe in living a D/s lifestyle, and love to talk and meet with others interested in the same thing. Books Finding Your Domme (a book for submissive males) is available here: http://goo.gl/uGhUxU Electronic Version Paper Version to be released very soon Finding Your Submissive (a book for dominant women) is available here: http://goo.gl/mpAe4j Electronic Version Paper Version to to be released very soon Podcasts You can subscribe to the podcasts on iTunes at http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/men-submit/id592… Or you can go to the Men Submit website and download them there Website/Blog Years ago I found it hard to find any non-porn resources having to do with femdomme, and in particular, female led relationships. So I created and run this website Men Submit. A sister website to Men Submit is She Makes The Rules (www.shemakestherules.com). This is a terrific site for learning about female led relationships, particularly for those starting out. There are forums that you can participate in. Soon there will be a dating module. Events I enjoy running and attending kink events. At the moment we are in an event hiatus due to an impending move, but we will start events back up in a few months.

Comments

Hersub
Reply

MsErotic – I think you are right about stealth submission, it is doomed to failure because there is no communication with your partner. I think to be successful in a flr the man not only needs to perform tasks to make the woman’s life easier, but she needs to want him to serve her and expect him to perform for her. Many of the tasks I perform routinely on a daily basis are repetitve and mundane. My motivation comes from the fact that I am performing them in service to my wife. In a stealth submission mode they would quickly seem like what they are, dull and routine chores.

As for Elise Sutton. Her site actually caused a setback of sorts for our flr. I showed my wife the site and she was so turned off by it that she was not receptive when I showed her other sites like Rika’s and Around Her Finger or when I gave her Rika’s book. She did join SMTR when I showed her that people our age with similar backgrounds were participating. For the first time we opened up to others about our lifestyle. So thanks to you Anne in Charge for creating that resource.

BTW my wife will join here here at some point and be an occasional poster.

Thanks for your efforts here.

AlphaDomme
Reply

Elise Sutton causes a lot of people setbacks. The problem with it is that from a fantasy perspective it speaks to everything a man dreams about. All he has to do is to start serving her, and without him ever having to say anything, she will become the heel-wearing, whip-bearing domme of his dreams.

Ms Rika is good. Loved her book. I’m a little less enthralled with Around Her Finger, only because again it encourages stealth submission.

A great problem with stealth is that men don’t get the feedback they are looking for. So it backfires.

I hope your wife will join us. And thank you for the nice words about my sites.

Hersub
Reply

MsErotic – Our situation might a little bit different. My wife has been entirely in charge in the bedroom for over 30 years so the fantasy has never been a question. I also have performed the majority of the household chores during that time. Where we needed guidance was how to put it together in a complete flr. Rika’s book helped me to understand that I needed to stop working toward a reward and realize that focusing on making my wife’s life easier and serving her was the reward. For my wife joining SMTR and reading posts from people leading the same lifestyle that we were helped to valadate flr for her.

I have veered a bit off the original topic. Thanks again for creating SMTR and (with MsEx) another great resource here.

Darryl
Reply

Great post, MsErotic. I agree with you on both topics. I must say that if a guy is looking for femdomme porn, Elise Sutton’s website is pretty good. I agree with you that it is probably effective as porn because the writers of the website are males who know how to push other guys’ buttons.

I also agree that men need to know that Elise Sutton probably isn’t a woman because believing that all or most or even a significant minority of women are anything like Elise Sutton could create impossible expectations in r/l.

As for stealth submission, I don’t see any point in it. In fact, I don’t even think open submission is an adequate way of dealing with sado-masochistic cravings unless it includes some elements of S&M. I used to believe “pure submission” could satisfy masochistic cravings, but I have changed my mind.

Suppose a guy craves spankings. Well, I doubt that a female led relationship without spankings is going to satisfy him forever. I have sometimes been able to derive erotic pleasure from “serving” by imagining that my wife would give me a real hiding if I didn’t meet her expectations. I was, in effect, pushing my own masochistic buttons, and therefore living a fantasy.

I suppose that living a fantasy is fine if it works for a couple. But I believe that it is better to talk about reality. If a guy is masochistic, he needs to communicate that to his partner. Obviously, if his partner is unable or unwilling to accomodate his cravings, he will have to accept that reality, either by renouncing his cravings or by developing an alternative way of getting sexual satisfaction. Maybe the only outlet for some guys’ masochistic cravings is fantasy, and there is nothing wrong with that, as long as they don’t lose the capacity to distinguish fantasy from reality.

I would posit as a general rule that a clear-eyed acknowledgement of reality is preferable to living an illusion.

AlphaDomme
Reply

Actually the Sutton Group absolutely does suggest stealth submission. And I quote:

‘You begin by treating her like a Queen. You begin by serving her as if she was already the dominant woman of your dreams. Be humble and submissive around her. Don’t argue with her, don’t yell at her, and don’t give her any back talk. Your purpose in your relationship is to serve her. What she says goes, so be quick to agree with her. ‘

And more ‘Eventually, you might take more liberty as you rub her feet. You might start to kiss and lick her feet. I wouldn’t do this the first time, but if she responds positively to the massages, then keep adding to them. You might work your kissing and licking from her feet, up her legs, and then to her crotch. That’s right, get in the habit of orally servicing your wife. Kiss her body all over and make love to her with your mouth and tongue. Do not ever penetrate her with your penis’ — Keep in mind that you are not supposed to talk to her yet.

And wait, my favorite part ‘You could buy her a leather skirt or a pair of leather pants and compliment her on how sexy she looks in leather and how submissive seeing her in leather makes you feel. ‘ — still no talking yet

It is only after many more paragraphs of this that they then suggest you sit down and have a chat with her about how you have submissive feelings but were afraid to express them to her. But by now you will have brought out the inner domme in her and she is so thrilled with you that she jumps at the fact that you are submissive.

Ok, that is sarcasm, but seriously, if I didn’t know about this and my mate tried that I’d be worried.

Darryl
Reply

MsErotic,

I had forgotten how silly some of the “advice” from Elise Sutton is.

It’s kind of ironic that a website dedicated to female superiority seems to suggest that a cleverly manipulative submissive male can condition a woman to be dominant the way Pavlov conditioned dogs to salivate to the sound of a bell.

Yeah, that’s going to work!

ServingB
Reply

MsErotic:

I enjoyed reading about your experiences. You are not suggesting that the Elise Sutton authors suggest stealth submission as an outlet for a submissive, are you? I believe the “Sutton group” as you describe them encourage open and honest communication between people. I just didn’t get the connection you are trying to make between the two.

But your points about stealth submission are in concert with mine. I never engaged in it in my marriage to a partner who rejected D/s. I didn’t see the point to it, and preferred her open rejection of D/s (at least we knew what the other wanted) to fantasizing that she welcomed it.

AlphaDomme
Reply

Yes a lot of it is silly. As a fantasy material, I can see how it appeals to men. All it takes is a little bit of housework and footrubs, and ta-da, instant domme. It is all about manipulation and nothing about communication. You don’t actually have to share or admit anything to your spouse, simply by manipulating her, she will turn domme. And you know, women are so stupid…..

For a long time a factor for me with men approaching me was that if they mentioned ES I would not consider them because they were not capable of thinking past the fantasy. Luckily, many men now seem to understand that it is fantasy.

Now if only I could find a man who would do my housework, massage and lick my feet, and so on. :)

ServingB
Reply

Oh my! Thanks for the elaboration MsErotic! I certainly must have skipped those chapters! That’s a hoot! And a bit sad, too.

MsRobbie
Reply

Ta-da, instant domme. That is damn funny, MsErotic.

The concept of stealth submission pains my heart. Some perfectly well-meaning men enter into it because they believe it will work, just like that .

Oh the disappointment, on both sides, when it doesn’t.

submike88
Reply

when i find a mistress i would love for to keep me under her compleat control and if see has to spank me then that what i need then

Jack
Reply

Yeah, I don’t see Elise Sutton’s stuff as much more than material to jerk off to. It’s fairly well written erotica, though. Also, the three books contain some negative anecdotes about femdom, such as a story about a guy who left his wife to become a dominatrix’s full-time slave, only to have his life completely ruined, that sound like they’re based on fact. And the latest book, Searching for Wanda, contains some interesting biographical material about Leopold von Sacher-Masoch.

Anyway, how do you know that “Elise Sutton” is a pen name for a mostly male group? I think you’re probably right, but has anyone actually confirmed this for certain? I’ve heard that the old Whap Magazine was mostly written by a guy, too.

AlphaDomme
AlphaDomme
Reply

Whap magazine was written by men. They came out and discussed it. You can find the interviews somewhere on the web.

I am not 100% sure about Elise Sutton, because ‘she’ does not talk to people. You can submit an email and might get a response back, but ES is not on any of the kink sites around, nor will ES talk to anyone. I did a very detailed search a few years ago trying to find and contact her, with no luck. What I did find is a man who was friends with the ES team. My information is based upon my conversation with him.

Think about it for a minute though. If ES were really a woman, she could make A LOT more money if she showed up at kink events as a speaker. There are many men who would pay to hear her speak. There are a lot of groups that would love to have her there. Given that it is a commercial enterprise, the fact that ES is not out publicizing, except on the ES site tells me that there is something going on there.

I don’t have any issues at all with the erotica aspect of it. Everyone should have some erotica to read that turns them on! The problem that I have is that it is erotica posed as reality.

Jack
Reply

Thanks for responding, AD. Actually, the pseudo-reality of Elise Sutton and Whap is a big part of their appeal for me. Maybe it’s related to the fact that I’m a big fan of many mocumentaries, from Zelig to The Office. But yeah, I can see how taking ES seriously as some kind of relationship adviser or social commentator could lead to big problems.

AlphaDomme
AlphaDomme
Reply

Hey – If you love the pseudo-reality, that is terrific. Seriously. I’m all for people having fun with things. My beef is when it is not realized that it is fantasy, not reality. Many, many men think that ES writings are real and that does lead to problems.

But enjoy the mockumentary aspect of it :)

Leave a comment

name*

email* (not published)

website