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Punishment in a Female Led Relationship (FLR)

One of our members, Kelmag, posted a blog right before we moved over to the new site format. His blog was on punishment in a Female Led Relationship (FLR). It was generating a lot of comments, and I thought it was worth moving over here. I’m not going to copy his exact post here. He found a blog on another private site and received permission to copy her blog here. I don’t have that permission, and it was extremely long, so I am going to summarize his post. Here is what Kelmag posted about punishment in a FLR.

[Kelmag's Post] I came across a very interesting blog entry about a subject that I must admit that I have given very little thought. The blog is a private blog – open only to invited members. The writer has been in a Female Led Relationship for twelve years. I asked her permission to republish the blog because it has changed my thinking about punishment in an FLR and thought it might change others as well. It is certainly not right for everybody but, after reading this article, I have come to the conclusion that it is not a fringe activity. It can have a place in Female Led Relationships that are not extreme or even into BDSM. Would it be useful in my relationship? Perhaps, in any case, I would be willing to give it a try. The problem is it is very unlikely that my wife would do it. Even light bondage is currently outside of her boundaries (but I’m working on that). But, it is something I had not considered before and it was this article that got me thinking about it.

(So now I’m going to summarize her blog post)

She says that the classic purpose of punishment is to deter behavior. That if swift consequences are enacted as a result of bad behavior, that he will avoid repeating that behavior in the future. She feels that punishment has other purposes. That voluntarily submitting to punishment is a way to make amends and ‘rebalance the scales’. That is a way for the offender to rid himself of the guilt that he feels. She says that giving out punishment helps to remove the negative feelings that all involved are feeling. The final note that she has about punishment is that it provides closure for an incident. That both parties are not carrying grudges or feelings forward regarding that incident.

She says that using punishment in a FLR affirms, or reaffirms, the authority of the woman in the relationship. That by the male voluntarily submitting to punishment he is reaffirming to her authority.

She has two notes about punishment. The first is that it should not be done in anger. The second is that it should be proportional to the offense.

She then goes into specifics of the punishments she uses, which are loss of orgasm and corporal punishment. What then follows is eight pages of very detailed descriptions of these two types of punishments. For example, she discusses how her husband gets only 4 orgasms a year, so that loss of one is a big deal. It is a very detailed and descriptive post, and I am only providing the headlines here.

This post was generating a lot of comments right before we moved over to the new look. Thanks to Kelmag for posting this. My question for everyone is do you think that punishment must be part of an FLR? If so, why, and how does that look for you?

 

AlphaDomme

AlphaDomme

I own Men Submit and am passionately committed to sharing information and experiences on how to live a female led relationship: from kink, to romance, to the daily practicalities of just gettin' it done. I live in San Diego with my subby hubby, BetaBoy, who is Australian. We are poly in our own fashion. This does not mean that we have a revolving door of partners. We prefer to have ongoing relationships with people vs. a one-off play date. At the moment our lives are very busy, but we always enjoy talking to people and meeting people. I'm an author, podcaster, and blogger. The topics I write and podcast about revolve around female led relationships and how to implement kink in a relationship with a dominant woman and submissive man. This is not just a commercial venture for us. We believe in living a D/s lifestyle, and love to talk and meet with others interested in the same thing. Books Finding Your Domme (a book for submissive males) is available here: http://goo.gl/uGhUxU Electronic Version Paper Version to be released very soon Finding Your Submissive (a book for dominant women) is available here: http://goo.gl/mpAe4j Electronic Version Paper Version to to be released very soon Podcasts You can subscribe to the podcasts on iTunes at http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/men-submit/id592… Or you can go to the Men Submit website and download them there Website/Blog Years ago I found it hard to find any non-porn resources having to do with femdomme, and in particular, female led relationships. So I created and run this website Men Submit. A sister website to Men Submit is She Makes The Rules (www.shemakestherules.com). This is a terrific site for learning about female led relationships, particularly for those starting out. There are forums that you can participate in. Soon there will be a dating module. Events I enjoy running and attending kink events. At the moment we are in an event hiatus due to an impending move, but we will start events back up in a few months.

Comments

AlphaDomme
AlphaDomme
Reply

So I will give my feedback on this topic. I don’t completely disagree with her about punishment. The idea of punishment is to teach someone consequences for their behavior. And I do think that it can (but doesn’t always) provide closure for an incident. I do disagree with her that punishment MUST be part of a FLR. There are no MUSTs. Only what works for you in your relationship.

The problem that I have is that many people in kink relationships confuse punishment with “funishment”. Punishment is delivery of consequences for bad behavior. Funishment is using kink for fun, often in the guise of ‘punishment’, but not meant to be serious punishment. Some people do not like the term funishment, so feel free to use whatever term you want here.

For me, punishment is going to be something that he would seriously not enjoy. It is NOT going to be a kink activity. It is not going to be a paddling or play with orgasm control, because those are activities that ultimately he likes (even if they hurt). The first thing that I would do is to sit down and have a talk with him. I know BetaBoy well enough to know that he would feel that he had let me down and would feel terrible about it. We would then discuss him lifting his game, and he would do it. The fact that he disappointed me would be punishment enough for a first offense. We haven’t had to deal with a second offense. But if we did, you can bet it wouldn’t be something that he wanted me to play with.

The other thing that I can say is that personally I don’t want a guy who continues to have bad behavior knowing that he can be excused by being punished. I want a guy who thinks about his behavior. I’m not saying that I expect perfection, I don’t. But I don’t expect someone to be bad and then say ‘punish me’. I also have a problem with the same behavior being repeated to get punishments.

Anyhow, those are my thoughts. I’d love to hear what some women have to say about this.

BetaBoy
Reply

I’d especially like to know if there are women out there who DO like their guy to misbehave occasionally.

MsRobbie
Reply

When it’s playful and fun, a naughty boy’s behavior can result in plenty good funishment. (Love that word, BTW)

A man who’s repeatedly a straight-up asshole? I hope I’d never have gotten involved in the first place but if I had, he’d get punished alright.

I would withdraw all D/s. Why would I want to dominate someone who has no intention of submitting?

And if the vanilla treatment didn’t get h’s attention, well, I might have to remove myself entirely. Wasted time is just that – wasted.

Love_4_life
Reply

As I have stated before, the kinky side of me gets all ‘sub’d out’ thinking about physical and other creative types of punishment but the logical and rational side wins out with an understanding that punishment is needed at times but not quite how most of us think.

As AlphaDomme stated “The fact that he disappointed me would be punishment enough for a first offense.”, if realizing you have let your partner down is not punishment enough I would challenge you to rethink your desire to serve. I know even prior to an acknowledged power exchange I was punished even if just by a look in her eyes…. If she had to say something it was even more devastating to me. Once early on when I let her down and she said “I’ll never ask for your help in that area again” I instantly felt physically ill. Thank goodness I was able to make amends because my gf generally sticks by anything she says.

Removal of service in an area or ALL areas temporarily to me is an effective punishment that in my opinion should be the WORST punishment a sub ever experiences. I would hope to never need experience this but feel that if I was really not getting something in a given area where I was trying to serve that becoming an observer instead of providing that service might help me see what I am not getting.

In summary I feel that the first step in correction should be communication. We are not perfect and we will fail from time to time. Being told how we failed and having an open dialog to learn and grow should take care of the issue. Having to listen to how I let her down = punishment. Talking the situation through and gaining an understanding of how to not let that happen again = growth and an opportunity to become a better servant.

As far as punishment in the physical form goes… I have thought a lot about it… I am not into pain (I am a big wimp) but spanking fascinates me. I am NOT advocating spanking as a solution to bad behavior but I wonder if some of the things I have read (and seem to make sense to a degree) might make spanking as an activity associated with an already worked out issue something to consider.

The idea is based on the premise that spanking advocates use as a valid reason for spanking as a punishment in that it provides closure to an issue. While I do not for a second think that spanking will provide correction (It never did when I was a child so why would it now), I am the type of person who feels guilt and wonders if a talked out issue is truly let go of and forgiven even after it’s been talked through and resolved. It’s been stated on many DD sites that the act of spanking when completed gives closure. I wonder if it would be effective not as punishment but as an act of love and release once a situation has been properly resolved or is that still just my ‘kink’ talking?

Basically a situation I see would be:

Offense is committed, maybe you were not paying attention when you should have been and forgot something that she felt was important.

Offense is realized. Whether you catch it yourself or see that look, or hear her say it the offense is now openly out there.

Offense is discussed, talked through, understood, forgiven and maybe even some time has passed to see that all has been corrected.

It’s at this point sometimes that I still wonder, or maybe even feel like there is some residual anger on her part or guilt on mine.

At this point would a ‘spanking session’ not as a punishment but perhaps as a ritual help the couple by physically releasing the psychological baggage? They say that the act lets the spanker physically release as well as verbally remind and ultimately feel closure and that the spankee will gain similar benefit from the pain and the words used through the session. According to what I have read when it’s done some time is spent holding each other and then it’s over.

Would something like this help? I don’t know… I do know that the spanking itself is not the answer or punishment. We go into this type of relationship voluntarily and out of mutual love. The punishment to me HAS to be knowing you let her down… The resolution is communication and correction through learning what she really wanted in the first place and striving to give that to her because her happiness is your happiness. But would a ritual spanking after be beneficial in any way? I wonder…

punycunt
Reply

I follow along the trend of the other posts. I am a total slut when it comes to corporal punishment, ballbusting and anal play so any “punishment” at all involving such activities, no matter how extreme, would only be pandering to my desires and would be no punishment whatsoever.

I am fascinated by chastity and orgasm control but have not been in a relationship long enough for that to have developed. Reduction of 4 orgasms annually to 3 or less would probably be a very serious matter and something that had the right effect. As is said above, punishment needs to involve something happening to the sub that he finds very distasteful or unpleasant in order to act as a deterrent so that he does not repeat the sort of behaviour that earned the punishment.

So not getting kicked in the balls or fucked up the ass by my female partner would be worse for me than receiving such treatment. Doing some household activities I don’t enjoy might instead do the trick.

I also wonder whether not getting “funishment” while my female partner plays with another male who gets such play would be effective.

Obviously, “punishment” in the context of role play between the partners is an entirely different thing.

The bottom line is of course communication. Partners need to able to talk through areas of difficulty and agree on acceptable behavioural interactions between them. I think knowing I had disappointed my Mistress would have just the effect AlphaDomme speaks of above. That is more to the point in achieving a proper female led relationship I think than having punishment regimes, whatever that might involve.

Rosey
Reply

I’m really new to this and only have a casual playmate but I have a slightly different stance on this all. Im very softcore when it comes to this and it’s definitely not a lifestyle for me, but a tool I use when needed…as a result, I really struggle to find information and inspiration that would suit my idea of being in a ‘female led’ relationship.

My desire to be the ‘domme’ isn’t so much so that I can be served and have total power over my partner neither do I hold the belief that he should adore me without him also being the recipient of my adoration…for me it’s about getting my needs met in a way that I think is respectful, thoughtful and effective. I feel that most men need to be trained to treat women well…to learn how to not put their own sexual desires before everything else and to be attentive and more selfless. So when I punish him, my intention is not to deprive him of orgasm (for too long), inflict pain or humiliate him but to do what is needed to teach the lesson that is required. I think this probably ends up being more like sexual torture for him but I find that it usually works…he normally takes on board the lessons he has learnt.

But to be honest, and in answer to BetaBoys question…yes I do like him to misbehave on occasion. Because I think in any healthy relationship limits are pushed and boundaries tested. I see it as him feeling safe to explore and experiment…and its my responsibility as his domme to reel him back in and teach him.When he does misbehave, it challenges me to get creative in the way I punish him…it gives me an opportunity to teach the lessons I am very passionate about…and I do soooo love to see him squirm and writhe and beg.

I know that my thoughts on this are probably not inline with a true domme but this is where I sit – and sadly it can be quite difficult to meet someone who wants the same as I do…

AlphaDomme
AlphaDomme
Reply

Hi Rosey,

Thank you for your response. There is no such thing as a ‘true’ domme. I know many dominant women who enjoy ‘naughty’ men and enjoy punishing them, or funishments with them. If that is a dynamic that you enjoy – terrific! There is nothing wrong with that.

Rosey
Reply

Hi…and thanks for your words AlphaDomme, I find that reassuring somehow because although I’d class myself as a domme, I haven’t come across many dommes with a similar take on all this as me – which sometimes has me second guessing myself.
But I suppose how we choose to live this lifestyle and how we choose to punish – as with many things in life – is about finding a way to make it our own so that it feels right for us.

spnkswtch
Reply

Thank you for all your responses and information to the topic.

Prior to understanding that DD is a real lifestyle, I placed myself in a DD relationship with my ex-wife. Before really knowing what was a DD relationship, I was in one. It was real simple. My ex-wife expected a much more mature relationship and at the time, I wasn’t mature and more self-centered. It wasn’t even that she needed to be superior to me but that I think of her as at least equal which I’m sorry to admit now, I didn’t.

I still had much of the bachelor life in me and if I was to stay in a relationship with someone I truly loved, I had to change. Change didn’t come easy which led to us agreeing to rules. We both grew up in strict environments – mine was not only home but Catholic school. Neither place spared the discipline for messing up. Given that it worked in the past, we agreed to add discipline to our relationship. I never realized how much I need to change and how hard it was until we instituted the rules.

Discipline was always measured for the offense and not always included the strap. However most times it did. It was always pretty immediate. Once I really offended my ex-wife while playing cards at a friends house. She immediately asked the couple if we could borrow their bedroom. She took me in there, I had to give her my belt, lower my jeans and underwear and she proceeded to discipline me there. It was very humiliating to go back to playing cards knowing that they knew exactly what happened. I never did that again.

Discipline did work on me when I was a kid and when I was older. Now I know it’s a more common thing than what I thought at the time. It was a very mental and physical thing and when it was over, I had a clean slate. We were never upset at each other after. We both knew what was done was deserved. I believe that I was more humiliated by the fact that I put her in the situation where she needed to discipline me.

Bart
Reply

I have had the experience of being spanked while visiting my wife’s sister. My wife asked her sister if there was a place where she could “have a talk” with me. She had warned me that insulting behavior could get me punished then and there but I didn’t think she would actually follow through. I was so embarrassed and I tried to not cry out but I wasn’t able to completely control myself. When we returned all my sister in law said was “very interesting” I won’t make that mistake again!

notalady
Reply

I enjoy it when the boy is impish and I revel in the Funishment. Depending on the creativeness and level of his impishness also dictated the funishment.
Now when he did something that was to my displeasure, then I, like what was said here by AD and others, withheld the kink. He would also feel punishment in knowing that he has disappointed me.

BetaBoy
Reply

I like that word “impish”! At the risk of being a definition nerd, I might have a go at unpacking this thread, just for grins. Interested in people’s thoughts.

I could be wrong but I have the feeling there’s an important line somewhere between impish and brattish. I’d interpret impish to be something along the lines of “lively, challenging and mischievous”, whereas I get the sense that brattish refers more to a systematic and ongoing resistance and disruption of the woman’s authority. Does that kind of ring true?

If we go with that kind of a definition, impishness is really a way for the sub to put energy back into the relationship. It’s a kind of play which gives the domme an opportunity to exert her power. Brattishness by contrast pulls energy out of the relationship because it forces a constant battle to maintain the power exchange; a war of attrition. Intuitively that kind of feels about right for AlphaDomme and me. As you’ll hear in the podcasts, I often gently tease or gently “act up” with Mistress, but I’d hate the idea of systematically challenging her authority in our relationship. I’d see the latter as tantamount to withholding affection.

So there’s one definition / approach for people to chew over. I’m just throwing it out there as one possible lens on the whole “is it ok to misbehave” topic.

CharOne
Reply

Yes, exactly, BetaBoy.

” impishness is really a way for the sub to put energy back into the relationship. It’s a kind of play which gives the domme an opportunity to exert her power”

I don’t mind the boy flirting with power by misbehaving / impishness, for just the reason you stated.
notalady

Rick
Reply

I have a dominatrix as a friend and I got very sick with pancreatitis. The doctors told me no more drinking or it could kill me. So my dom made a rule of no drinking at all and if I do she has promised to beat my ads so hard I won’t be able to sit. That was 2 months ago and I haven’t had a drink and I have really wanted 1but it is not worth the consequences. So in summary just the thought of punishment is a very effective solution to behavior problems.

AlphaDomme
AlphaDomme
Reply

@Rick – Are you saying that you would not have stopped drinking without punishment?

Closed Sub
Reply

Not trying to speak for Rick but I can say I have used corporal punishment to lose weight, (when I couldn’t on my own). However it must be with someone you absolutely trust, and they must have the power to MAKE you recieve your punishment. Or at least that is the only way it would work for me.

It was easy and exciting to find someone (even vanilla females who had the right disposition) who would agree to a contract where I would come once a week and show them 7 videos (one for each day)of my daily workouts, and get on a set of scales to make sure I was under my scheduled weight. But when I missed a weight, or missed a workout, and had to strip down, and get tied across a table, and was given 20 licks as hard as they could give them with no timeouts or safe words, I quickly decided I would never miss another workout for the rest of the contract, and didn’t. I went from 285 to 190 and stayed there for the rest of the contract, 18 months.

When I woke up in the morning and didn’t feel like working out before going to work, the fear of getting another brutal whipping would force me to workout. Believe me it WORKED!!

Tim
Reply

In our relationship spanking can be for fun (mostly hers) or real punishment. I quite enjoy a sore bottom, afterwards, because it makes me feel close to her, safe, and more in my body, but I hate having to submit to a spanking when I’ve messed up, and feel truly awful when her anger/disappointment is combined with one. It will make me cry with real remorse – and hurts like hell!!

But the reason for sharing this is I am also a guy who loves living with a woman who spanks. It is one of the biggest pluses of a FLR. It makes me feel secure and the thought of it turns me on. So my point is, despite being one of those spanko guys, the points in my first paragraph still stand. It is not the form that makes it punishment, or if it is my kink or not, it is ‘why’ it is happening. If I’ve upset her, the spanking hurts my ego, my pride, my bottom and my head (i.e. beliefs/thinking). I get a real punishment. If she just old me off, I’d be able to rationalize it away and dismiss her logic etc. But I can’t do that while being spanked – in other words: her viewpoint and feelings ‘get through’ and I never (deliberately) make the mistake that led to it again.

Hope that helps.

Tim

Madamsub
Reply

I have the same feelings as Tim. Getting the punishment is as much a mental beating as physical, I feel very guilty for having upset or disappointed Madame to the point of deserving the punishment and the physical pain of the punishment links to my sense of letting her down imprinting in my mind that I do not want to go there again.

We have been in a FLR for several years now and after nearly 20 years of a good marriage we have an even better more solid relationship. It is an ever evolving thing. We are pretty much totally into the lifestyle, I have been in chastity for 7 years, now it is 24/7/365. We have our kink in the bedroom, Madame is my Domme, but in everyday life she is my Queen whom I love to serve.

She has her kinky Domme outfits and implements for fetish sessions but on the other side of the bedroom door we have a maintenance/discipline spanking regime we try very hard to stick to. There are presently 3 aspects to our regularly scheduled sessions: I am on a weight loss program with a certain target weight, and a goal of at least 2 pounds loss every 2 weeks.
We will begin our ritual every 2nd Wed morning with a “weigh in”, if I have lost my required 2 pounds since the last session I will receive a number of strokes equivalent to the number of pounds I have yet to lose to get to my target, the incentive here obviously to lessen that number. if however I have failed to meet the mark I receive one stroke for every pound that I weigh. Believe me as I count out the extra 200 I want to make sure that I do not have to do this again. There are incremental rewards of enjoyable orgasms as incentive.
The second aspect to our ritual is we call the maintenance aspect which is to affirm my position of submission to Madame and her authority in our relationship. In this phase Madame will push me into sub space to where my ass can take a lot of punishment without struggling from the pain. This point makes me feel so totally submissive to Madame, it is a euphoric feeling.
The third aspect is the punishment for any infractions I may have committed in the past 2 weeks. These punishment strokes are in the form of deep burning, butt striping cane strokes. I find that receiving these while in that state of complete submission have a very real psychological effect on me where I don’t want to have this happen again for that reason and am thus very motivated to correct that behavior.

We also have the understanding that if I at anytime commit a punishable offence Madame will inform of this and it is up to me to arrange a punishment session at the earliest possible time, the longer the delay the more severe the punishment. I have been through this once and believe me I do my best to avoid these sessions as there is no euphoria in a hundred plus fiery cane strokes. It does however make me even more subservient to Madame and that is what makes our FLR work so well.
Madamsub

agape
Reply

I read this article and the comments and that took some time to think about it. I can’t imagine any punishment not granting some sexual excitement. If I genuinely didn’t want to do it than it would still add some sexual tension simply because of who was ordering me to do it. I don’t like washing dishes but I do like washing dishes for my partner.

Ms_Rika
Reply

I do not punish my subs. I don’t feel that punishment is necessary – and in more than 20 years in the lifestyle, it hasn’t been.

Punishment is something done to children to associate unpleasantness with a failure to comply with rules, norms, or authority. Sounds good, right? Not really… The reason it is often necessary with children is that children have not yet developed the capacity to understand commitment, consequence, and honor. They are not capable of being relied upon to keep their word, follow rules that they have agreed to, or feel compelled to live up to their commitments.

Subs are not children – at least mine aren’t. Early on, I set up an EXPECTATION with my subs…that they are committing to the dynamics of our power exchange willingly and, as such, are expected to maintain their end of the agreement – AS ADULTS – using the self-discipline being an adult affords them.

There is no reason a man cannot maintain his own commitment…and if he doesn’t, it does not take more than a brief conversation regarding his failure and my disappointment in it to bring him around. Subs are MUCH harder on themselves than I could ever be.

The onus of obeisance is on the submissive. He remains committed to the dynamic because he wants to – not because he’s afraid not to. I want my subs to want to serve…out of passion for serving – not out of fear of consequences. If his desire to submit is not strong enough to help him live up to his commitment to do so, then he should not promise to do it…and we should no longer have the dynamic in place.

To me, his decision is simple, submit fully and completely or don’t submit. If having a sub is more work for me than not having one, he is not of service to me! I’m not his mother. I’m the person to whom he committed his service and submission.

- Rika

hapless_male
Reply

As a male who is spanked and disciplined by a Female, I can say with certainty, it works. I report to a professional Dominatrix for disciplinary sessions where I am punished for actual, real life offenses. The sessions are not role play. My Domme and i discuss things that i have actually done. i am in my late 30′s, but i can assure you that I am NOT grown up. i have very childlike tendencies. The sessions consist of her addressing with me the things that i have done and the punishments that follow.

She scolds me something fierce. I mean, the scoldings have me about ready to cry, even before she proceeds to turn my over Her knees to begin the punishment. The way in which she administers the punishment is very effective. As much I i enjoy being bent over Her knee, i can tell you beyond the shadow of a doubt that I am nervous as She is scolding me. i realize that what She has in store for me is designed to get a message across. i cry quiet a bit during the sessions. i cry from the pain of the punishment. i cry from the shame of the things i have done. And i cry because i have disappointed her.

When She is administering over the knee spankings to me, She sits in a straight back chair that is by a full length mirror. So, when i am laid over Her knees with my pants all the way down (or off completely), i can see myself. i can see the tears streaming down my face. I can see Her hand coming down on my butt. Sometimes it is Her hand, other times it is a paddle, hairbrush, switch,etc. Sometimes, She gets so frustrated with me, She takes Her shoe off and spanks my butt red with it! That really adds to the punishments. She will tell me “How fitting. A Woman’s shoe beating you on the butt”. I can recall one time in particular when She spanked me with Her shoe for an incident where i had not shown a Woman the proper respect. It was one of the worst spankings i have ever had. That shoe hurt like crazy and it taught me a very valuable lesson in respect for Women. She took me to the mirror and made me look at my red butt and the markings left by Her shoe.

She has a wide assortment of whips and paddles, but one paddle She has was specifically made for me! Or so it seems. Of course, She had that paddle before She and I ever met, but, with the way that particular wooden paddle fits my butt, you would think that it was in fact made just for me! It is round like one of those paddles with the string and rubber ball, except, it is MUCH bigger and thicker. There is tape around the handle. There is a drawing on one side of a Woman blistering a man’s bottom across her lap. She makes me feel it before She uses it on me. It is quite smooth, but it brings me to tears when it pops my behind! Something about it’s roundness coming into contact with the cheeks of my bottom just seems to fit perfectly.

Anyway, after i have had a session with Her, i do behave. my attitude is better. i curb child like behaviors. The punishment works. i do need it, even despite the fact that i am an adult. After the most recent session with my Domme, my oldest niece even commented on how sweet i had been lately! in my mind, i was thinking “if you only knew”! But, the fact was, i was sweeter because i had been punished for a previous bad attitude. I can not stress this enough. Punishment works. Period.

AlphaMaleSub
Reply

I’m a very ‘antsy’ person and have a hard time sitting still. For me, the worst punishment is to have my hands cuffed or tied behind my back and then made to stand in the corner for an hour or two. For a serious offence, I must wear panties (which I hate as I am not into crossdressing at all) while serving my time. I totally hate it and even the threat of being given ‘corner time’ is enough for me to reconsider my offending behavior.

agape
Reply

I don’t need it but I do want it. It’s fun and when I dream of the most complete FLR there’s lots of punishment in it.

Paul_vt
Reply

My wife always says, “Fantasies are hungrier than bodies.”

I have all kinds of hot and happy fantasies about being caned, but when I feel an actual cane or Decibel’s metal carpet beater whistling toward my behind, it’s amazing how my desire for the next stroke evaporates.

BTW, Decibel and Zanne almost never punish me. They agree that using BDSM methods to amend my behavior sets up a mixed message that might cause me to perpetuate that behavior. Simply saying, “I’m disappointed in you, Paul” is more than enough to drive me to do better.

They do, however, do lots of impact play with me (spanking, flogging, caning, etc) They say its, “For your own good” and “It improves your attitude”

In the deep past, Zanne and I did try spanking as punishment. It worked poorly because I would be very very good and still be craving a spanking session, meanwhile she would really want to take me over her knee, but felt like she didn’t have a reason. I felt like I was in a catch22 because, in order to get my needs met, I had to disobey her and I hate disobeying her.

Now, they spanks me when they want to for that reason alone and for me, that feels like they have more power than using it for punishment because it comes solely at their whim not as a reaction to my behavior.

agape
Reply

Now, they spanks me when they want to for that reason alone and for me, that feels like they have more power than using it for punishment because it comes solely at their whim not as a reaction to my behavior.

Do think doing it both ways would work ?

Bart
Reply

When we started our kink it was what was referred to above as funishment. But somewhere along the line my wife shifted to a strict policy of not mixing punishment with fun. When I have done something to warrant punishment I know what to expect and there is never any sexual component. If we are at home I will be strapped with a tawse until my bottom is sore enough to be difficult to sit on for a day or two. My wife carries a hair brush in her purse and has used it when I have offended her while visiting friends and family. I was humiliated and her response to my lingering embarrassment was her telling me that if I behave she will have no reason humiliate me. She says my behavior has been much improved since she fulfilled her promise to punish me on the spot. I never associate a punishment session with pleasure.

Paul_vt
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Agape, I guess the question is, what do you mean by work? Would it be fun? Yeah, sure. Would it be an effective way of behavior modification? For us, no. I don’t think so, but every relationship is different…..

agape
Reply

@Paul_vt

I’ve been trying to send you a message but I can’t seem to find your profile. Could you drop me a line when you get the chance?

Paul_vt
Reply

@Agape, That’s probably because I don’t have a profile. I had never thought to set one up because I assumed they were just for dating purposes and I’m already in relationship. I hadn’t thought of having a profile for private messages etc. I’ll set one up in the future when I have more time. If you’d like to message me before then, you can PM me through FetLife. I have the same user name, “Paul_vt”

Davidx
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I’m appalled at the idea of limiting a guy’s orgasms to 4 a year. This isn’t punishment or lifestyle – it’s abuse. It’s a well-established medical fact that health is improved by frequent orgasms – I believe I’ve read that at least twice a week is recommended. Please don’t dismiss this as just a man’s way of arguing for more sex. Orgasms achieved via masturbation are equally effective as those with a partner, at releasing immunoglobulin A, that helps to boost the immune system, although obviously they’re not going to lead to the release of the chemicals in the brain that support bonding and closeness with a partner. To deprive anyone of orgasms or to limit them in this way is an unpleasant and abusive form of punishment, and one that no loving partner should ever consider.

AlphaDomme
AlphaDomme
Reply

Davidx – For you this may very well not work and would constitute abuse. Abuse is a very strong word. What constitutes abuse to you may be an agreed upon and exciting kink to others. It is important to realize that with kink, every person is different. What would be abuse for one person is a turn-on for others.

For example, I personally know two men who regularly go more than one year with no orgasm, voluntarily. They are both single and it is not something that is forced. I also know a man who could not go more than 2 days without one or he was literally beset with migraines that caused him to miss work. So you see, everyone is different.

There is no hard medical evidence regarding how many, or how frequent, orgasms should be. There is also conflicting information on the health benefits of orgasms. No one argues that there is not a release of chemicals that certainly produce a variety of feelings, not the least of which is bonding with a partner. However, the jury is out as to whether it causes physical harm to reduce orgasms.

I’m not trying to justify the limiting of orgasms. What I am trying to put forth is that for some men, orgasms may be extremely important. For others, they find it unimportant. For others, they get the benefit of close feelings with their partner by limiting their orgasms in some way.

BetaBoy
Reply

Yes I am going to leap on that word “abuse” as well. It’s just a completely inappropriate word to paint so broad brushed over the limiting of male orgasms. When it comes to emotional abuse, every person is different, David. For *some* men it may well constitute abuse, while for others it’s a dream come true. By all means consider it abuse in your situation, but don’t make claims on behalf of the entire male population.

With regards the idea that orgasm denial is physically abusive: I don’t know what your motivation is for arguing that men should achieve orgasm twice a week and I am not commenting on that, but I think the argument itself is a bit silly even before we look at the issue of denial. Many healthy, happy men don’t orgasm with this frequency; don’t WANT to orgasm anywhere near that much, even when they are not in a power exchange relationship. I know because I have plenty of frank vanilla buddies who tell me so.

If you can cite a reputable medical paper which provides hard data from a large data set on major health risks associated with not getting to cum twice a week, I will be very interested to read it.

To reiterate. I have no problem with you saying it is abusive to YOU and not something you want to experience. If you don’t want this to happen to you it would be abusive if it were forced on you. Just please don’t universalize your ideas to everyone and then dress it up as science and fact.

If you DO feel you have important health information then I genuinely invite you to post a link here, as it would indeed be important for men to look at and think about it objectively so that they can make an informed life decision.

Davidx
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This IS medical fact, and I’m not ‘dressing up’ anything. See http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15217036 for a reference to the scientific paper. Obviously, if a guy chooses to limit his own orgasms, nobody can be accused of abuse, but to exploit his desire to be submissive, by placing this harmful limitation on him, can only be described as abusive. My understanding of D/s relationships is that they involve consent between loving partners who care about each others’ welfare. Apologies if I’ve got that wrong – I have no desire to break any rules here,

Domesticsub
Reply

I thought I would put in my two cents, mostly because I’ve worried about this and have done some research in the subject. Davidx, I read the article you posted, and it seems on that point, you are correct. Salivary immumoglobulin levels seem to be the best with frequent ejaculation. If that were the only thing that ejaculation affected, the discussion would be over. Forever, that’d not even remotely the case. For example, testosterone levels don’t get back to normal until 7 days after ejaculation. So, the argument could be made that 2-3 ejaculations a week will keep you in a constant state of low testosterone. And that’s just one. I’m sure there are tons of things that are both positively and negatively affected. The point I’m making is that I do not believe that there is a conclusive study that has been done in regards to complete overall health benefits of male orgasm frequency, there are just studies that concentrate on one specific thing. Just something to think about.

AlphaDomme
AlphaDomme
Reply

Davidx – Thank you for posting this link. Unfortunately that was only an abstract of the study (and I likely would not have understood the full article anyhow, as that is often written in medical terms).

First some background according to WebMd:
‘IgA antibodies are found in areas of the body such the nose, breathing passages, digestive tract, ears, eyes, and vagina. IgA antibodies protect body surfaces that are exposed to outside foreign substances. This type of antibody is also found in saliva, tears, and blood. About 10% to 15% of the antibodies present in the body are IgA antibodies. A small number of people do not make IgA antibodies.’

‘High levels of IgA may mean monoclonal gammopathy of unknown significance (MGUS) or multiple myeloma is present. Levels of IgA also get higher in some autoimmune diseases, such as rheumatoid arthritis and systemic lupus erythematosus (SLE), and in liver diseases, such as cirrhosis and long-term (chronic) hepatitis.’

‘Some people are born with low or absent levels of IgA antibodies. Low levels of IgA occur in some types of leukemia, kidney damage (nephrotic syndrome), a problem with the intestines (enteropathy), and a rare inherited disease that affects muscle coordination (ataxia-telangiectasia). This increases their chances of developing an autoimmune disease.’

‘People with very low immunoglobulin levels, especially IgA, IgG, and IgM, have a higher chance of developing an infection. A very small number of people cannot make IgA and have a higher chance of developing a potentially life-threatening reaction to a blood transfusion.’

Summary regarding IgA – It is important in helping fight off chance of infection. Both very low and high levels (i.e. levels outside of the normal range) can cause problems.

Now my summary of the article you provided:

#1 – Individuals in the frequent group (1-2 orgasms per week) had significantly higher levels of IgA which boosts your autoimmune system.
#2 – Individuals in the very frequent (3+ orgasms a week) group had the same levels of IgA as the none and infrequent groups. Therefore, the optimum # of orgasms to increase your IgA would seem to be 1-2 times per week, but no more.
#3 – What is the necessary amount of IgA to stay healthy? There is nothing in the synopsis that states whether the non, infrequent, and very frequent groups had IgA levels that were outside of the normal range. Only that their IgA levels were less than the frequent group. Hard to tell from this article if there is an actual problem with having less than 1 orgasm or more than 3 orgasms in a week actually harms you.
#4 – Sexual satisfaction and length of relationship were NOT related to orgasms. This tells me that your satisfaction with your partner and sex are not related to how many orgasms you have. You could then extrapolate and say that intimacy, based upon this study, is unrelated to the number of orgasms. Intimacy must be more complicated than just the number of orgasms.

You are not breaking any rules here. Discussion is healthy, and we encourage it. However you are being judgmental. You have strong feelings regarding orgasms but you cannot judge all relationships based upon this. For you, having orgasms is a very important part of your relationship. I’d say most dommes agree with this. In some relationships – both partners practice some form of chastity – voluntarily. To say that it is abuse is not true. You cannot globally claim that restriction of orgasms harms a man. The study you provided does not say that. Nowhere in the study does it say that in the three groups with lower IgA are being harmed by the lower amount of IgA.

One last note. The two men that I know who voluntarily don’t have orgasms are super healthy guys. I’ve never known them to even have a cold.

BetaBoy
Reply

I think it is great that this article has been shared in this forum. Thank you, David. The problem lies in this assertion: “to exploit his desire to be submissive, by placing this harmful limitation on him, can only be described as abusive.”

You’re imposing your world view on others, here. I am in a relationship based on orgasm control, but I absolutely reject the idea that I am being “exploited”. I’ve been actively involved in setting up the parameters that guide our relationship and I am more satisfied and fulfilled than I have ever been.

You are taking a paper that talks about mild health benefits associated with achieving orgasm and then catastrophizing the issue, painting it as something deeply harmful, and which therefore “could only be described as abusive.” It could be described in many different ways other than abusive! You find it abusive but others do not,

If someone opts to accept greater health risks associated with hang gliding are they being abused by their hang gliding instructor? If someone chooses to take up smoking are they being abused by the person who offers them a cigarette? If your answer to these questions is yes, then I think you have a pretty watered down definition of the word abuse.

I am a consenting adult. I chose this lifestyle and can choose to end it whenever I want. I feel enriched by it, and am quite happy to wear any mild risks in order to experience that enrichment.

If you are going to insist on defining that as an abusive relationship, what word do you want to use for people who are non-consenting victims of violent beatings, forced imprisonment, or other forms of systematic and profound abuse?

It would be abusive for you. I get that. I’m not trying to argue YOU out of that position. I wouldn’t even mind so much if you commented in the forum with words to the effect that “in your opinion, you find it abusive.” But you don’t do that. Instead, you use language which universalizes your particular point of view and demands that everyone shares it:
“…to exploit his desire to be submissive, by placing this harmful limitation on him, can only be described as abusive.”
That is not helping anyone.

I’m not going to get into a flame war on this, as it is silly and I think I’ve pretty much made the point I want to make here. I think your paper is interesting and useful for submissive men in making an informed decision. Again, thank you for bringing it to peoples’ attention. But nothing about its findings supports the notion that orgasm denial is abuse.

BetaBoy
Reply

David, I reread your post and I wonder if the heart of this issue relates not so much to orgasm control per se as it does to the idea of consent?

In your post you said, “My understanding of D/s relationships is that they involve consent between loving partners who care about each others’ welfare. Apologies if I’ve got that wrong.”

You totally didn’t get that wrong! However, a relationship based on orgasm control is entirely compatible with two loving people giving their full consent.

Many kinky people adhere to the RACK principle (risk aware consensual kink). (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk-aware_consensual_kink) This approach to negotiating power exchange requires that both sides of the partnership are as aware of the risks as they can be (no one can foresee all risk) and give their consent. A strong rationale behind these rules is to ensure that all parties are protected and safe.

Do all kinksters adhere to these principles? Of course not. And in those relationships which don’t adhere to RACK I agree the potential for abuse is higher. However, many kinksters (I’d guess the vast majority) care deeply about ensuring informed consent. The link you provided to the medical paper was greatly appreciated in this respect, because it helps the community gain a better understanding of the risks.

If what you are actually saying is that it is abusive to force anyone, against their will and informed consent, into a life of deprivation – then I agree with you. :)

Anyway, I hope this sheds some light on why you’ve encountered some strong resistance to the idea that this set up constitutes abuse. Thanks.

Davidx
Reply

OK – people will make their own minds up. Hopefully, this debate will provide them with some insight into the longer-term health implications of their lifestyle choices.

AlphaDomme
AlphaDomme
Reply

Davidx – Thank you for the interesting discussion. It is great to see people talk about their opinions.

BetaBoy
Reply

Thanks, Davidx. :) Great to discuss this important topic and I really appreciate that you didn’t mince words in stating a strong point of view. Hope guys read the linked abstract and discuss with their partners.

hapless_male
Reply

Speaking of punishment, I am due for some! There is only one place I’m going, and that is over Her knee. And I’m not coming up until I am well reddened and remorseful.

Brian
Reply

I am relatively new to this and have just signed a 24/7 contract with my wife/ mistress. We have been discussing this for almost a year and it has now finally all come together. My wife was not keen on the punishment side of it. I spent many hours explaining why I feel it is important … I have several bad habits, grown with time, and I do not want them to ” pop up ” in this relationship. After a beating ( the few she has consented to doing) I felt a lot more drawn to her, I have a feeling of well being and i feel washed of my bad habits I do not get aroused by this, the pain is real, but I feel it is needed to help me be a better person to my wife. I have given her full control of all aspects of our life because it feels right. She gave me life, now she is my life

AlphaDomme
AlphaDomme
Reply

Thank you for posting Brian. I can understand why your wife is not keen. If you have bad habits – improve them! You are an adult who should take responsibility for what you are doing (or not doing).

bill
Reply

I agree with AlphaDomme that we need to take responsibility for our own behavior, for someone else can’t change us. I feel, to ask my partner to punish me suggests that I was weak minded and not deserving of her respect, something that I feel might make her wonder why she was with me. Thus I just wouldn’t go there. Besides, I’m just not into pain and fortunately she never wanted to hurt me. And to me, gaining her respect through how I behaved was of the upmost importance, thus it was a high priority of mine for her to see that I had self control.

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